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Yes.

15 (5%)

No, it's not the same.

14 (4.7%)

No, it's even worse.

25 (8.4%)

No, it means Dora's history.

30 (10.1%)

No, because it's going to end different.

19 (6.4%)

No, because there's emergency bourbon.

17 (5.7%)

UBMEOD!

34 (11.4%)

Oh heck, who am I kidding?

4 (1.3%)

(sniff) No, I've just got (sniff) allergies...

31 (10.4%)

This thread is gonna hit 40 pages by tomorrow, isn't it?

109 (36.6%)

Total Members Voted: 237

[tughluq]

Aside from anything else, a man attracted to Faye probably doesn't find all that much appeal in Dora physically.

I'd like to think that, as a character, Marten's not that one dimensional. Most real people have pretty diverse taste in attractiveness.

I guess maybe I'm not that real. My current girlfriend vaguely resembles my first ever crush. She isn't the only one I've dated or crushed on since that first one who fit a fairly recognisable template. It wasn't intentional, I'm just hard-wired for a fairly narrow range of characteristics. Obviously that isn't the only thing I like about the girls I date, but I just don't get that initial spark of interest in people who don't check the boxes.

Honestly, that's not something I can understand. Weird.

[mickcheese]

That would be silly, but it's just the trigger. They both want out.

I think you're reading too much into things.

There are problems with the relationship. Problems that need to be worked out if they're going to move forward, but I don't see either one of them as actively pursuing an end to things.

[Soluzar]

That would be silly, but it's just the trigger. They both want out.

I think you're reading too much into things.

There are problems with the relationship. Problems that need to be worked out if they're going to move forward, but I don't see either one of them as actively pursuing an end to things.

The facial expressions tell me a lot. The fact that they both seem to be using something trivial as an excuse to fight tells me even more. Dora could have just let it go, and not raided his laptop. She had to know he wouldn't be pleased. Her expression when he got home said she knew he wasn't pleased. Marten could have done his usual impression of an invertebrate. Both of them deliberately turned this into a fight.

[AnAverageWriter]

Well, congratulations, Dora.

You have managed to, over the sake of your own faux pas, "end it" with Marten.

Marten, the kindest, most patient, most tolerant guy that YOU will ever find. A man who was willing to work through your temper tantrums, through your insane jealousy and try to make things work.

And all because you refuse to respect the clearly stated privacy of the person you claimed to love. Heck, he even gave you a chance after that, and you blew it like a cop-spiked tire. Slammed the door shut, no less!

Marten will move on. Will find someone better. But you? You won't find anyone like him. He's got the maturity to find better, the capacity to listen you lack, and none of the baggage you so lovingly force upon those who consider themselves your friend.

You and your purple hair have, for the sake of a baffling need to be right, sabotaged the most healthy relationship you will ever have.

Hope yer proud of yourself!

[HeavyP]

Former-lurker-now-new-poster here (I've tried to join a couple times before, but I never got a confirmation email until this time HOORAY).  ANYWAY.

Not jumping on the "hate Dora" bandwagon, but that is seriously NOT an apology.  That's not even close.  Walking in with an offended attitude and saying basically "I'm sorry that you're so sensitive about this," is not an attitude of actual remorse.  Marten is also completely within rights to be sick of apologies that aren't anything more than words.  I just really hope that Marten sticks to his guns this time and doesn't sprint after her to try and apologize; I'd like to see them both cool off and then come back and talk about it because that would actually be DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM instead of slapping an endorphin-and-sex bandaid on a pretty serious set of emotional rifts.

[Torlek]

Ehhhh that so did not look or sound like an actual apology to me - did it really, to you? It sounded like one of those 'I'm sorry you were offended' non-apology apologies. I mean she even said 'I didn't think it was any big deal' with this look on her face that would make it sound to me like 'I don't think IT SHOULD BE a big deal'

Well I'm sorry, you don't get to decide that, S.O. - I do.

Her reaction is just about the opposite of what it should be. I really hope that's her being defensive because she knows she fucked up and she can't deal with it - that doesn't make me like her behavior any more, but it's better than her being absolutely clueless about her mistake. Willfully so, even.

that was just the heat of the discussion. Someone posted earlier the 3 (although there should be some more) rules for a relationship fights, and the third one was to let the anger cool down... they were both angry and they were shouting stupidity to each other.


I mean really, a (apparently) break up ONLY 'cause Dora look on Marten's porn? think about it, that's just silly.

That's an epic simplification of things. This isn't about the porn. It's about Marten having to tip-toe around all of Dora's insecurities while she wantonly disregards his. Really if you boil it down it's a trust issue. Dora is obviously incapable of trusting Marten. She refuses to believe that he's not just another jackass in sheep's clothing.
Can she have insecurities? Yeah, everybody's got them. Can she be bitchy from time to time? Yeah, everybody flies off the hook because of something stupid every once in a while. The difference is adults realize they're being stupid and own up to it. Dora's just being childish. While I'm normally all for understanding both sides, being the bigger person, being magnanimous and all other noble and rational things, Marten is fully within his rights here. Adult relationships are about compromise. Only compromise I've seen Dora make is moving in with Marten instead of the other way around. I don't hate her by any means because her character strengths and flaws remind me of my girlfriend in many ways, which is why I live in fear of this kind of situation, she just needs to grow up.

[MillionDollar Belt Sander]

They both want out.

I was wondering this myself... 

[raoullefere]

I trade my "oh boy" for an "oh MAN"

What this strip says to me most of all is that both Marten and Dora have serious issues. Marten had a right to be angry, but he went off a little too hard on Dora there; he let his resentment for her behavior build up just a little too long and it all came rushing out at the wrong time.

Somebody one this forum once said that Dora is subconsciously looking for ways Marten is really an asshole underneath it all and once she has that reason, she'd leap on it and wreck the relationship (again, subconsciously). I wish I could remember who that person was because I think they were right; Dora's "Well. I guess that's it then." speaks volumes. She's not willing to talk about it. She's not willing to let him be entitled to his feelings (and after all he's been through, Marten is totally entitled to his anger, even if it came out the wrong way). She just assumes it over because that's probably how her relationships in the past ended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUH3JQjcweM

Well, I did, several times. I don't know if I'm the originator, though.

I don't know that this is the end. It is a wake-up call to Dora and, possibly, to Marten. The real question is, will any waking occur, or will they roll over and go back to bed?

More immediately, I'm wondering if Dora moves out, and if so, where?

[mickcheese]

The facial expressions tell me a lot. The fact that they both seem to be using something trivial as an excuse to fight tells me even more. Dora could have just let it go, and not raided his laptop. She had to know he wouldn't be pleased. Her expression when he got home said she knew he wasn't pleased. Marten could have done his usual impression of an invertebrate. Both of them deliberately turned this into a fight.

Well, I agree that they're both ready to fight about this, but that doesn't mean they want to end things. Some fights need to happen.

Fighting does not always, or even usually, lead to a breakup. This is an issue that needed to be addressed and since it was an emotional issue addressing it would probably have to happen during a fight (like it did) or become a fight of it's own (like it evolved into), but that doesn't mean either one of them wanted to stop seeing each other. Dora's personal issues with relationships make her think that failure is the only option, but I very much doubt that Martin's going to let it end like this.

[Emperor Norton]

I'll say that... Dora fucked up. No doubt. I don't hate her though. I've seen this exact type of situation too much before myself.

That said... while not the biggest fuckup going on here, Marten needs to not hold all that in. Being a good guy doesn't mean ignoring problems after you have a fight. Which is what he has done so far. They get into a fight, she finally realises she overreacted to something, and he accepts the apology immediately then drops it without talking about it again.

And during all that, you can tell that he has really been carrying a lot of baggage through this. And that baggage has to eventually go somewhere.

I feel bad for both of them here. I've been on both sides of this before, and its just no fun.

But, overall I think they will work through it. My marriage has been through its fair share of psychotic blowups, and when you really love someone, you work through it.

[JD]

Saw this coming.

[tbones]

I mean really, a (aparently) break up ONLY 'cause Dora look on Marten's porn? think about it, that's just silly.

That would be silly, but it's just the trigger. They both want out.

You are exaggerating, i don't think they want out. But i don't think I do know what they want. I can only say that they got in a big fight over a silly thing, and dora tried to apologise to soon. Really, couples do have big fights where they fight and scream hurtfull things. But did they really wanted to cut the relation?
Dora has a pattern with her relationships, the minute something goes wrong, she thinks everything is doomed and that the couple should break up.
And Marten building up all of his rage? that's not cool. Or healthy for the relationship. At all.

[IanClark]

I think Dora may be anticipating it, but I don't think either of them are looking for a way out or else they would've found one in the last fight. Look at panel 2 of this strip. That's neither the gaze of a woman who thinks she's about to get what she wants nor the way someone responds even if he's trying to hide wanting out.

There are only two things about this discussion that irk me, the first is that people keep acting like there's something fundamentally wrong with their relationship just because there's one major problem with it. Admittedly, most healthy relationships aren't this rocky, but some are. I know many people who have dealt with compulsive gambling, horrific jealousy, mental illness and a horrific myriad of other problems and still ended up working out and being quite happy together. It's possible. There are a lot of flaws in their relationship, but nothing unovercomeable.

The second is people acting like this whole arc somehow makes Dora unworthy as a person. Honestly, if anyone can point out a second major flaw I'll be surprised. Dora's redeemable, and it's not hard. She just needs to get serious about it.

[jwhouk]

A few "pull back the lens and take it all in" thoughts:

• Dora has been a cast member of this strip now for over 1,700 strips. Coffee of Doom has been part of the strip even longer than that (strip #9). Either Jeph is planning on doing a massive Reset Button on the strip (which is possible, given how much time he's put in to re-doing some of the earlier strips) or he's going to do a Hogan Family number (Valerie? Who's she?).
• Faye let slip in 1782 that Dr. Corrine won't work with anyone else in her social circle, so she's out as a therapist.
• I get the feeling that Dora is, more than likely, going to go visit Sven. And then Sven is going to do unto her what she did unto him.
• I truly expect that Faye will be none too happy about this. She might inflict bodily harm upon Dora. I mean, for reals, not pulling up after getting up all in her face like at the end of their last argument.
• I still say the ultimate "OH ####" moment would be if Mom called Marten at just that moment. "Hi, dear, I happened to be in the area and wondered if you and Dora were available for dinner?"
• I do anticipate that this thread WILL hit a dozen pages by the time the week is out. This is a "And Then, Everything Changed" moment we're going through.
• As a breather at the end of this arc, I'd like to see the following:
  

  Pintsize (sitting on couch, looking through Marten's laptop) : Man, there's NOTHING on here.
  Winslow (pointing to the screen) : What's that folder, marked "Tax Returns 2004-2006"?
  Pintsize (pushing laptop aside) : Who cares. I'm going to go see if there's anything new on 4chan.
  Winslow (looking at Pintsize as he leaves, then looking at the screen)
  Winslow (clicking on the folder) : What's this? (pause) It looks like...
  Winslow (reaction shot of horror for three or more panels)
  

[gathayah]

Wow, these past two comics actually compelled me to register just so I could talk about this latest Dora/Marten explosion.

I generally try to be as impartial as possible whenever drama happens between characters and try to understand where both parties are coming from. As such whenever stuff like this happens I can usually see both points of view. This time though, try as I might, I just can't understand the logic behind Dora's stance. Marten has a completely valid point. Granted, Dora has some major issues which have been discussed a lot. But nevertheless, that doesn't exonerate her from being a bitch, and no matter how you swing it the bottom line is that Dora started this. Whether it was a "big deal" or not, Dora blatantly disregarded Marten's wishes, which was a total lack of respect on her part.

Dora has put Marten on a ridiculously high pedestal and holds him to all these crazy standards and yet feels that she should be able to do whatever she wants without any consequences. And why? Because she feels that because she has these issues, she is somehow not accountable for her actions. Marten had every right to be angry. And as someone before me mentioned, the fact that she didn't give Marten some time to cool down before trying to talk about it didn't help matters at all. One of the biggest rules regarding fights in any serious relationship is that they need to be discussed with a level head, and that simply cannot be done fresh from an explosive argument. So not only was Marten still very steamed from his confrontation with Dora, she decided that they needed to talk about it absolutely right then. That probably made Marten feel like she was apologizing out of necessity rather than being genuine about it.

Was Marten out of line with his "I'm sick of your apologies" line? Perhaps. But Dora crossed that line first by calling him a pedantic prick, absolutely refusing to look at it from his point of view, and completely ignoring a valid point. I hate to jump on a bandwagon here, but Dora is undeniably being a bitch. And as usual, Marten has been made out to be the bad guy. She needs some sense knocked* into her.

*Not in the physical sense of the word.

[pendrake]

For comic #1797...

1. From jephjacques' Twitter: "I am doing my absolute best to avoid the inevitable shitstorm about this story. What a bad week to swear off booze." Also the wrong week to quit smoking, amphetamines, and sniffing glue .

2. Panel #4: good job on the almost-cry draw on Dora, really shows the emotion of the moment.

3. This...is going to be an "interesting" rest of the week (or two) for strips... . It will be interesting to see where Dora goes for venting &/or advice.

4. I have said it before how I am a Faye+Marten hold-out even after nearly 1 800 strips.  But as a testament to Jeph's quality of characters and writing, I have never wished Dora+Marten any ill either since I like Dora as well.  [P.S. Add: That is right all you Dora-haters, I STILL LIKE Dora!  Even being whilst being a old Faye+Marten shipper!]

5. I have been in these kind of moments, where things that cannot be taken back get said.  I regret them [it makes me sad in the knowledge that I have had more than one ] even after many years.  My only hope is no one will do something equally rash that cannot be taken back.

[someone1074]

Nope. Didn't go that way.

Give it time. Pretty much every Marten v. Dora fight has ended that way eventually.

1. One does something the other doesn't like
2. The other makes things worse with poor wording
3. Big blowup
4. A few days of moping
5.  "I'm sorry let's just pretend it never happened even though I'm still mad at you".




I just hope something becomes of this. Marten stops letting his irritation build up, Dora becomes a little more self-aware... Something besides "I'm sorry yeah me too forget about it whatever".

Yeah, I'm still waiting on the conclusion. I did get half of that right in that Dora really didn't think it was serious though.

Mind you, only a small part of me hopes it goes that way. I concede that it would be remarkably uninteresting after it's happened so many times, but I would find some small amount of humor in it.

[Akima]

She needs some sense knocked into her.

I'm really, really hoping that was meant metaphorically. There have been some great facial expressions the last couple of days. It speaks volumes for Jeph that this is so painful to watch.

[KOODustin]

All I have to say is FUCK YES, MARTEN!  She deserved EVERY BIT of that tongue lashing.  Man, I wouldn't be able to stand Dora.  I still don't know how Marten could even fall for her at all.  Though, I do have to say, he's WAY too quick to go from his righteous anger to "Oh no, I'm probably a piece of shit."

[helloandgoodbye]

Martin's been letting his frustrations build up for a long time and he exploded about a relatively minor indiscretion. If he'd taken the time to actually talk to Dora about his frustration after the last fight they could have avoided this escalation.

As for Dora, her reaction to his overreaction is too dramatic and a bit silly. Fights happen in relationships, and when they get bad hurtful things are said. Take a timeout, go cool off, but that's certainly not "it then".

I hope this arc ends with Martin realizing that being a nice guy doesn't mean ignoring problems and repressing your anger until it explodes and Dora (and half the forum) realizing that the Sword of Damocles isn't hanging over their relationship just waiting for the first chance to end things.

  This is one of the most reasonable posts in the thread.

  What Dora did just now wasn't that big of a deal.  Yeah, she should have respected his privacy, but some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch. She and Marten just need to work out their problems.

[TheMusicalVito]

^No, it actually was a big deal.

[mickcheese]

This is one of the most reasonable posts in the thread.

Thank you.

What Dora did just now wasn't that big of a deal.  Yeah, she should have respected his privacy, but some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch. She and Marten just need to work out their problems.

Personally, I think this will end up strengthening the relationship and relieving a lot of tension between the two of them. Which would be like Kryptonite to the Dora's-a-miserable-cunt crowd.

[AnAverageWriter]

some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch.

You know, she's the one providing the ammo for that.

[sirisaacnuton]

Martin's been letting his frustrations build up for a long time and he exploded about a relatively minor indiscretion. If he'd taken the time to actually talk to Dora about his frustration after the last fight they could have avoided this escalation.

As for Dora, her reaction to his overreaction is too dramatic and a bit silly. Fights happen in relationships, and when they get bad hurtful things are said. Take a timeout, go cool off, but that's certainly not "it then".

I hope this arc ends with Martin realizing that being a nice guy doesn't mean ignoring problems and repressing your anger until it explodes and Dora (and half the forum) realizing that the Sword of Damocles isn't hanging over their relationship just waiting for the first chance to end things.

  This is one of the most reasonable posts in the thread.

  What Dora did just now wasn't that big of a deal.  Yeah, she should have respected his privacy, but some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch. She and Marten just need to work out their problems.

But what people have been saying is that if this were all that had happened, it wouldn't be all that big a deal and would be an overreaction.  But it's not.  I'm not saying soulless manipulative bitch, but her blowup over the pantsless Faye episode would have had me seriously considering a relationship with her if it'd been me.  The not bothering to listen to him or take him seriously adds more fuel to the fire, and then the nerve to turn it back on him and call him a prick because he got mad is more than enough fuel for a s***storm.  No, looking at Marten's porn isn't that big a deal.  But the whole of her behavior toward him of late is a very big deal, it's not a little thing, and it was pretty wrong to do to a S.O.

[helloandgoodbye]

some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch.

You know, she's the one providing the ammo for that.

  The thing is that I just don't see it.  She doesn't strike me as manipulative at all.  Just a girl who has some insecurity issues she needs to get sorted out.

  -sigh- But I guess some people need a scapegoat...

[IanClark]

some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch.

You know, she's the one providing the ammo for that.

If you took only what she's doing now, removed all the context provided and decided not to give anyone the benefit of the doubt even a little bit, yes. But the people who are basically deciding she's irredeemable or fundamentally horrible are ignoring her troubled past and the long list of altruistic things she's done. I prefer to see the good in people, even fictional people, and I think that hating Dora, or indeed almost any character in the strip, requires a deliberate effort to not do that.

[jwhouk]

Good Lord, we might hit 10 pages by tomorrow night.

[KOODustin]

Personally, I think this will end up strengthening the relationship and relieving a lot of tension between the two of them. Which would be like Kryptonite to the Dora's-a-miserable-cunt crowd.

 No, I think we'd still find Dora to be a miserable cunt.  I think a big part of it is that we like the character of Marten so much we want to see someone worthy of him with him.  It's like a friend dating a girl you know isn't right for him and basically walks all over him and wanting better for him.

And I have to say, if you boil it down to simply "looking at his porn" it's de-legitimizing his anger.  That's not what she did.  She invaded his privacy and that is a HUGE deal.

[AnAverageWriter]

 -sigh- But I guess some people need a scapegoat...

NOBODY is "scapegoating" anyone. As sirisaacnuton so aptly said, this event is the culmination of a larger series of events. One droplet in a bucket will annoy whoever has the bucket stuck on his head. A torrent of droplets will drown the poor soul.

[sirisaacnuton]

The combination of http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1737 and http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1739 I think speaks worlds to what Marten's really feeling about Dora, and also Faye.

These little touches were kinda overshadowed by the explosion that came a couple panels later, but in general I think they show there's a lot more under the surface here...besides the fights (or repressed non-fights), besides the other issues.  Faye's using Marten as a meterstick to compare her feelings about Angus, and Martens appears to be feeling like something's missing, and that he's not exactly super happy.  These two comics I thought were some of the most interested and thought-provoking I'd seen in a while, even more so than the ones with the blowups.

The Marten in panel 4 of 1739 needs out of this relationship.  Maybe he's finally found an opportunity to seize control of the Marten who likes Dora, the Marten who just wants someone, and the Marten who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  

[mickcheese]

The thing is that I just don't see it.  She doesn't strike me as manipulative at all.  Just a girl who has some insecurity issues she needs to get sorted out.

  -sigh- But I guess some people need a scapegoat...

Most Americans. We like to know there's a villain responsible for everything. Listen to any American politician give a speech. They don't talk about what they will do to fix problems or to prevent future problems, instead they spend the whole speech assigning blame for the current problems.

And it works. The Republicans just swept into office on a campaign that consisted entirely of that. And the Democrats did the same thing two years ago.

[helloandgoodbye]

Martin's been letting his frustrations build up for a long time and he exploded about a relatively minor indiscretion. If he'd taken the time to actually talk to Dora about his frustration after the last fight they could have avoided this escalation.

As for Dora, her reaction to his overreaction is too dramatic and a bit silly. Fights happen in relationships, and when they get bad hurtful things are said. Take a timeout, go cool off, but that's certainly not "it then".

I hope this arc ends with Martin realizing that being a nice guy doesn't mean ignoring problems and repressing your anger until it explodes and Dora (and half the forum) realizing that the Sword of Damocles isn't hanging over their relationship just waiting for the first chance to end things.

  This is one of the most reasonable posts in the thread.

  What Dora did just now wasn't that big of a deal.  Yeah, she should have respected his privacy, but some people on here are acting like she's a soul-less manipulative bitch. She and Marten just need to work out their problems.

But what people have been saying is that if this were all that had happened, it wouldn't be all that big a deal and would be an overreaction.  But it's not.  I'm not saying soulless manipulative bitch, but her blowup over the pantsless Faye episode would have had me seriously considering a relationship with her if it'd been me.  The not bothering to listen to him or take him seriously adds more fuel to the fire, and then the nerve to turn it back on him and call him a prick because he got mad is more than enough fuel for a s***storm.  No, looking at Marten's porn isn't that big a deal.  But the whole of her behavior toward him of late is a very big deal, it's not a little thing, and it was pretty wrong to do to a S.O.

  The problem here is that people are ignoring the reasons that Marten is at fault here as well.

  Dora invaded Marten's privacy.  Yes.  She apologized.  Yes.  Instead of trying to, you know, explain to Dora why he was angry, he basically attacked her about a subject that she is rather sensitive about and is irrelevant to the situation.  Dora is right.  Marten is being a little vindictive.

  And Dora actually was listening to Marten's side in this instance.  She realized that he was right and apologized and explained why she did what she did.  Instead of explaining to Dora why it was a big deal to him, he brought up things from the past, which, frankly, is only going to get the other person on the offensive.

  They are both at fault here.  Not just Dora.

[gathayah]

The thing is that I just don't see it.  She doesn't strike me as manipulative at all.  Just a girl who has some insecurity issues she needs to get sorted out.

  -sigh- But I guess some people need a scapegoat...

Most Americans. We like to know there's a villain responsible for everything. Listen to any American politician give a speech. They don't talk about what they will do to fix problems or to prevent future problems, instead they spend the whole speech assigning blame for the current problems.

And it works. The Republicans just swept into office on a campaign that consisted entirely of that. And the Democrats did the same thing two years ago.

...Okay I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with the comic? o.O

[DominicSparkles]

< snip >
Aside from anything else, a man attracted to Faye probably doesn't find all that much appeal in Dora physically.
< /snip >

Oh, seriously? Because I have been attracted to all shapes and sizes of women. And men, for that matter. Variety is the spice of life!

[IanClark]

The Marten in panel 4 of 1739 needs out of this relationship.  Maybe he's finally found an opportunity to seize control of the Marten who likes Dora, the Marten who just wants someone, and the Marten who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  

I know that look. It's the look that says "Son of a bitch, this is going to hurt either way." He knows things need to change, but that doesn't mean he wants them to end completely.

[mickcheese]

...Okay I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with the comic? o.O

Not a damn thing.

Just sayin'...

[Soluzar]

The combination of http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1737 and http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1739 I think speaks worlds to what Marten's really feeling about Dora, and also Faye.

Like I keep suggesting, he's not really all that into Dora. Never has been.

When Faye asked him that question just after going out on a date, he didn't understand it but he felt an enormous sense of loss. The really sad part is that Faye seems really happy, and so... even if Marten and Dora split up, the chances of Marten and Faye getting together are minimal. It wouldn't be fair on Angus for Faye to just drop him in favour of Marten, even assuming that she wanted to... and I'm not sure by this point that we can assume that much.

I won't ever stop wanting Marten to get with Faye, but I think that ship sailed by now.

[ChibiSoma]

Jesus jumped up Christ. REALLY?

Dora is a CUNT.

Marten's going to end up being the one to apologize, isn't he? The testicle-lacking asshole's going to APOLOGIZE when he was totally in the right, isn't he?

So. Fucking. STUPID. Words fucking fail me. Dora proves she's an unmitigated cunt and Marten gets sad puppy eyes? No. Fuck you. That isn't how this fucking works. Marten needs to sit his stupid, dopey ass down and let Dora THINK about what she's done and what she just tried to do. Because god damn, she's being idiotic.

[helloandgoodbye]

The thing is that I just don't see it.  She doesn't strike me as manipulative at all.  Just a girl who has some insecurity issues she needs to get sorted out.

  -sigh- But I guess some people need a scapegoat...

Most Americans. We like to know there's a villain responsible for everything. Listen to any American politician give a speech. They don't talk about what they will do to fix problems or to prevent future problems, instead they spend the whole speech assigning blame for the current problems.

And it works. The Republicans just swept into office on a campaign that consisted entirely of that. And the Democrats did the same thing two years ago.

 Yeah, I've realized that too.  That's why I'm not too fond of our system.  The two parties just attack each other rather than working out problems together.

[AnAverageWriter]

 The problem here is that people are ignoring the reasons that Marten is at fault here as well.

Just because you choose to minimize something doesn't somehow absolve Dora. Marten was not being vindictive, and Dora did not apologize. Sarcastically saying "I'm sorry" with an angry face while at the same time stating that the thing one is apologizing for is meaningless does not an apology make- it's a manipulative way of trying to gain headway in a fight, one she caused.

Dora was never "listening" to any side but her own in any way, shape or form. Her language, facial expressions, and minimization clearly demonstrate this.

They are both at fault here.  Not just Dora.

No, they aren't.

[mickcheese]

Jesus jumped up Christ. REALLY?

Dora is a CUNT.

Marten's going to end up being the one to apologize, isn't he? The testicle-lacking asshole's going to APOLOGIZE when he was totally in the right, isn't he?

So. Fucking. STUPID. Words fucking fail me. Dora proves she's an unmitigated cunt and Marten gets sad puppy eyes? No. Fuck you. That isn't how this fucking works. Marten needs to sit his stupid, dopey ass down and let Dora THINK about what she's done and what she just tried to do. Because god damn, she's being idiotic.

Well, at least you're keeping a cool head about this WEBCOMIC.

[Random Wanderer]

Hmm. Well, that discussion went better than I was expecting.

...What? They can totally work this out before it reaches the point of having Hannelore's parents nuke Massachusetts.

[AnAverageWriter]

Well, at least you're keeping a cool head about this WEBCOMIC.

We need a door people can walk to and slam.

[bicostp]

I hope Marten doesn't go drinking. I dunno who he should talk with. Maybe not Faye. Angus possibly?

Jimbo.

[badbum61]

Marten's not looking for a way out. His expression in the last panel makes that abundantly clear. But Dora, whether consciously or otherwise, seems to always be looking for ways to sabotage the relationship. Been there, done that....

[sirisaacnuton]

 The problem here is that people are ignoring the reasons that Marten is at fault here as well.

  Dora invaded Marten's privacy.  Yes.  She apologized.  Yes.  Instead of trying to, you know, explain to Dora why he was angry, he basically attacked her about a subject that she is rather sensitive about and is irrelevant to the situation.  Dora is right.  Marten is being a little vindictive.

  And Dora actually was listening to Marten's side in this instance.  She realized that he was right and apologized and explained why she did what she did.  Instead of explaining to Dora why it was a big deal to him, he brought up things from the past, which, frankly, is only going to get the other person on the offensive.

  They are both at fault here.  Not just Dora.

Well, this is only somewhat on target.  Dora's first lines, just read, seem reasonable...she conceded he was right, and apologized.  But since we can't get tone of voice from a comic, we're left with the context clues of the word choices and facial expressions.  If you combine the actual language she uses in her apology "Look, I'm sorry...", "I just didn't think it was that big a deal", combined with the facial expression and body language that seems to be giving a big nonverbal "Are you serious?  I can't believe you're reacting this way," and it reads (at least to me) like if we were there it wouldn't quite sound so much like an apology.  

So if Dora was well and truly listening to Marten's side, and apologized, then this would fall with a certain amount of blame on Marten too (maybe a lot of it).  But he clearly explained his side for 2 strips, during which she utterly ignored him, so clearly she's not "listening to his side."  And the body language and word choice make it seem like her tone is at the least not very apologetic and at worst outright antagonistic.

She's not being the reasonable person here that you make her out to be.  Sure, some of this obviously falls on Marten too...that's always the case with situations that can get to a place like this.  But you're making it out as though Dora is acting reasonably, or that Marten is contributing to this explosion as much as she is.  He explained his opinion, repeatedly, and was ignored.  He finally got mad, left the room rather than starting a fight, and was chased into his bedroom.  He had an "apology" pretty much thrown in his face, judging by the nonverbal cues.  Dora initiated the situation, and Dora escalated it.  Marten certainly didn't help matters with his zingers, but then, he didn't exactly just throw them in her face out the outset.  He tried to leave, and she literally cornered him.  

[KOODustin]

Well, at least you're keeping a cool head about this WEBCOMIC.

 We're all passionate about this webcomic, and arguing this stuff.  I can't stand this dismissive attitude on a message board devoted to discussion of the web comic.  It's a testament to Jeph's work that there are people this passionate about his characters.

[IanClark]

They are both at fault here.  Not just Dora.

No, they aren't.

Marten's at fault in that he minimized the overarching issue when he talked to Dora after their last fight. He said something to the effect of "It's not a big issue, we can work on it eventually" instead of "I'm willing to stick by you but you need to fix this now." This fight is basically an extension of the last fight which had elements of the one before it.

[helloandgoodbye]

 The problem here is that people are ignoring the reasons that Marten is at fault here as well.

Just because you choose to minimize something doesn't somehow absolve Dora. Marten was not being vindictive, and Dora did not apologize. Sarcastically saying "I'm sorry" with an angry face while at the same time stating that the thing one is apologizing for is meaningless does not an apology make- it's a manipulative way of trying to gain headway in a fight, one she caused.

Dora was never "listening" to any side but her own in any way, shape or form. Her language, facial expressions, and minimization clearly demonstrate this.

They are both at fault here.  Not just Dora.

No, they aren't.

  I never said that it absolved Dora.  I just said that Marten did not handle the situation as well as he could have either.

  Also, take a look at the comic again because I think we're interpreting it differently: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797

  Okay, look at the first panel.  Dora's face is clearly remorseful and confused.  I don't see how you could possibly get an "angry face" from this.  I also don't see how you could construe her words as sarcastic.  They seem genuine to me.

  She also admits that Marten was right and that she shouldn't have invaded his privacy.  She's confused.  She isn't sure why Marten is so mad, so she she says that she didn't think it was that big of a deal in order to get an explanation from him.  I don't see in any shape way or from how she is being angry, sarcastic, or unapologetic.

[Econoclast]

About fucking time. I am gonna be so annoyed if they get back together after this.