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Chill And Understanding

0 (0%)

Faye Cliff Notes (and loading docks)

3 (5.9%)

The Angst Solstice

5 (9.8%)

"Are you gonna break up with me?"

2 (3.9%)

Something we gotta fix.

0 (0%)

Full Disclosure, Crazy Bitch and Sense of Timing

2 (3.9%)

"The first genuinely Nice Guy" she's been with

0 (0%)

"I love you." "I love you too."

10 (19.6%)

"LESS TALKING MORE HOT MAKE-UP SEX"

16 (31.4%)

Whole Social Circle imploding over no PANTS!

13 (25.5%)

Total Members Voted: 41

[LeeC]

aren't temper-pedic pillows that small though?

[akronnick]

So is Faye coming to work tomorrow or what?

[raoullefere]

Raoullefere, you posted a theory in last week's thread that I really agreed with - namely, Dora is a master of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Relationship-wise, she sets herself up to fail, deals with a crappy relationship (while further lowering her self-esteem), and then watches as the relationship fails (presumably this involves being dumped by the guy). You pointed out that she started this relationship with Marten with the same idea in mind (because Marten was obviously attracted to Faye)...but then Marten was different. And now she doesn't know what to do, so she chooses to lash out in a preemptive "hurt them before they hurt me" fashion.

I really like that theory. I also think it really fits in neatly with what Sven told us about Dora's dating history. And if that ends up being right, that's why I'm bothered by her in today's comic.

[snip for brevity, not for lack of thoughtful reasoning]

I can see Marten thinking there's some resolution from this conversation, but I'm not convinced there is on Dora's side. Yet.

If I am right, (and Jeph only knows that) then it's going to be very difficult for Dora to 'catch' herself doing that. That's why I think she needs counseling, so an uninvolved party can help Dora learn to perceive clues in her thought process that indicate she's 'doing it again.' Your brain needs training to do what you want it to, just like a balky horse. You have to be able to know when he's going to cut to the right to leave the arena before he does it. Correct him enough, and, in theory, he stops doing that. (In practice, the sneaky bastard waits until you're not paying attention for a while, then does it again. And so does your brain. But I'm told eventually they give up.)

But, to me, Dora's at least trying to do that tonight. She's listening to herself and stopping when she catches herself in the discrepancy between what she says in panel 2 (justification) and panel 3 (accessing reality). That's a start, yes? But very few people, I suspect, can do this sort of thing on their own, or at least it will take much longer.

No, Dora's issue is not as serious as Faye's problem (no black outs or possible attempted suicides, for one thing), and then again, it's exactly the same, because both of them expect a bad part of their history to repeat itself in new ways, but with the same devastating effect on them. It's why each woman fears the possibility of repetition and how she reacts that differ. But both problems have at least one other thing in common: the absolute ability to make their possessors miserable beings who are well able to 'starve to death' in the 'land of milk and honey.' (Or Marten and Angus. Call them what you will  ) The difference there is that while Faye's issues have kept her from eating at all, Dora's allows her a few nice meals before starving her again. Which is worse?

Oh, and points to Marten for more full disclosure. So long as he holds to that, he keeps the moral authority (or whatever you want to call it) to hold Dora to it, too (which she did). I guess that's some of the handling Carl-E's concerned about, but doesn't she need it at this point?

Edit: got to stop building walls. 'Pintsize Lol' would've covered it, I think.

[akronnick]

I don't know what is motivating the Dora hate, but I suspect that those who are dissapointed that Marten didn't dump her expect perfect relationships at all times, and if one partner fails the other, the only recourse is to DTMFA.

And yes, earlier in this arc, I did say that if Dora didn't see that she was wrong here, Marten should DTMFA, but I emphasized the if.

Now that Dora has shown remorse, and in the latest strip has begun to analyse her insecurity, Marten would be an absolute heel if he dumped her.

D'ingTMFA when you really care about someone is the relationship equivalent of declaring war: to be avoided at all costs, but sometimes there is no alternative. It shouldn't be the standard response anytime your SO fails to live up to a standard of some kind, especially if they are willing to try to alter their behaviour, as Dora is doing now.

And as much as I can't beleive I'm actually saying it, Pintsize is right, they do need to get to the make-up sex, if only to metabolize the angry hormones and replace them with the feel-good cocktail of brain chemicals that the beast with two backs is so good at producing.

[Switchblade]

Weak. Way to be a total wuss, Marten.

Jeph threw away the perfect opportunity to break those two up -- something that's been overdue for years.

funny how two people can read the same comic, and one of them can come away with such a totally fucking ass-backwards interpretation.

A good relationship - the kind that involves two people telling each other "I love you", "I love you too" AND MEANING IT - does not spring fully formed out of some kind of faery-tale cereal box. They require hard work and commitment. They require one or both sides to be tolerant of the other's foibles.

Marten just spent several strips showing that he has an emotional core of tempered steel and the calm resolve to make his relationship work despite the rocky patches, and you think he's a wuss? Brother, you wouldn't recognise real strength if it fucked your eyeballs out with the UBMEOD. For him to dump her without an honest attempt at resolution would have been the most weaksauce, spineless, reprehensible thing he could have done.

The guy may be a physical wimp but heck, I aspire to have that kind of emotional fortitude. And if you think otherwise, then I suggest you resign yourself to never finding a lifelong partner.

[Lost Coastlines]

Just for context, I don't think the gravity of Dora's previous relationships should really be blown out of proportion.  There's a difference between being treated poorly and being abused.  IMHO, Dora falls clearly in the former category for two reasons.  The first of those is Dora herself.  Even when we see her irrational insecurity and jealousy outbursts, she stands up to Marten (albeit against fantastical perceived transgressions).  She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis.  Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.  When Sven said "treated her like shit, cheated on her, the works," he said it as her older brother.  There's some hyperbole there.

The second reason is her family.  Sven was obviously familiar enough with her past paramours to form an opinion.  When Dora introduced Marten to her parents, her mom mentioned something about how he was the first boyfriend Dora brought home that she found attractive.  It stands to reason they met some of the others.  Sven may have his own drama and her parents may be off in la la land half the time, but none of them are that disconnected.  It seems unlikely they'd just stand aside and let her be abused time and time again. 

These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner.  Sad, but not abuse.

[Graphite]

She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis.  Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.

Ah, but every abuse victim is different and reacts differently. Dora might have developed a particularly strong, assertive tone as a useful defense mechanism, and could have been less assertive prior to being "hardened" by her experiences in these relationships.

The second reason is her family.  Sven was obviously familiar enough with her past paramours to form an opinion.  When Dora introduced Marten to her parents, her mom mentioned something about how he was the first boyfriend Dora brought home that she found attractive.  It stands to reason they met some of the others.  Sven may have his own drama and her parents may be off in la la land half the time, but none of them are that disconnected.  It seems unlikely they'd just stand aside and let her be abused time and time again. 

These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner.  Sad, but not abuse.

You can't really tell that someone's an abuser, though, by meeting them in a casual context. Lots of 'em are really good at hiding their abusive tendencies from the outside world - they might just come off as douchey, enough for Sven to notice, or they might come off as entirely charming and confident when in front of parents. Maybe Sven's better at recognising them than their parents, as well, because he's exhibited assholish behaviour before, or maybe he saw them in less formal contexts than "meet the parents" dinners, or maybe Dora came crying to him about them in rare moments of sibling solidarity, but rarely told her parents.

It's a leap to say her old boyfriends were abusive rather than just assholish, but it's not completely implausible, especially if you're talking verbal self-esteem-attacking abuse.

[Odin]

So is Faye coming to work tomorrow or what?

This would actually be the perfect opportunity to write Faye out of the comic.

Faye says "Fuck you, Dora!" and gets another (better, real, as in not at a fucking coffee shop and actually working somewhere not-dead-end) job, or moves back to her home state and gets a better job, or whatever. Either way, she moves out of the apartment because fuck living in the same place with toxic people when you have your own issues. Don't even bother answering the question of where things go with Angus, because it is irrelevant until Faye completes her therapy and learns to genuinely love herself rather than only standing up for herself to spite people that make her angry.

Yes, Martin and Dora are toxic people. Pretty much everyone in QC is (which is where most of the humor comes in), though, so that really shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Lost Coastlines]

She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis.  Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.

Ah, but every abuse victim is different and reacts differently. Dora might have developed a particularly strong, assertive tone as a useful defense mechanism, and could have been less assertive prior to being "hardened" by her experiences in these relationships.

The second reason is her family.  Sven was obviously familiar enough with her past paramours to form an opinion.  When Dora introduced Marten to her parents, her mom mentioned something about how he was the first boyfriend Dora brought home that she found attractive.  It stands to reason they met some of the others.  Sven may have his own drama and her parents may be off in la la land half the time, but none of them are that disconnected.  It seems unlikely they'd just stand aside and let her be abused time and time again. 

These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner.  Sad, but not abuse.

You can't really tell that someone's an abuser, though, by meeting them in a casual context. Lots of 'em are really good at hiding their abusive tendencies from the outside world - they might just come off as douchey, enough for Sven to notice, or they might come off as entirely charming and confident when in front of parents. Maybe Sven's better at recognising them than their parents, as well, because he's exhibited assholish behaviour before, or maybe he saw them in less formal contexts than "meet the parents" dinners, or maybe Dora came crying to him about them in rare moments of sibling solidarity, but rarely told her parents.

It's a leap to say her old boyfriends were abusive rather than just assholish, but it's not completely implausible, especially if you're talking verbal self-esteem-attacking abuse.

On the first point, the differences are really less than one might expect.  Also, the "assertive tone as a defense mechanism" idea is kind of absurd; aggressive perhaps, but not to the abuser or perceived abuser (in this case Marten).

On the second point, fair enough that the abuser can hide it.  I won't deny that this is often the case.  But if this was a pattern that repeated itself as Sven said, Dora wouldn't be able to hide the effect on her from her parents, even if she never explicitly told them any details of those relationships.

Unless Dora's had some serious counseling (which she has seemed to indicate that she has not) I will say that I don't think it's plausible that these past boyfriends were really abusive.

[zagraf]

Oh for Christ's sake. Marten, of all the characters, a "toxic" person. Dora needing to be dumped by "wussy" Marten. What's next, calling Hanners a crybaby attention-getter who should toss out her pills and stop seeing a "head-shrinker?"

I suspect some of the people on this forum--not most, most of you folks are great--have never meaningfully interacted with other human beings in person, except when required to for work, school or family occasions. Have never had a real friendship or relationship--again, in person.

Because such people don't seem to have a rolling fucking doughnut of an idea as to what makes real human beings--not D&D characters or MMPORG "hordes" or superheroes or whatever--tick.

To them I say: turn off your PC, go outside and meet people. Take a class. Volunteer for a non-profit cause. Hang around bookstores or jazz cafes. Get to know human beings in all their wonderful, frustrating, colourful, exhilirating, exhausting diversity. And then see if you're so damn sure about who is or isn't "toxic" or "wussy" or whatever neat little boxes you so cavalierly put people in.

[pwhodges]

Martin and Dora are toxic people

You could try spelling Marten's name right, for a start - though that wouldn't make your suggestions any more convincing.

[Graphite]

On the first point, the differences are really less than one might expect.  Also, the "assertive tone as a defense mechanism" idea is kind of absurd; aggressive perhaps, but not to the abuser or perceived abuser (in this case Marten).

Granted, it's a rarer response, but I've internet-known a few people who've developed that defense post-abuse. I do agree with you that we don't have much reason to presume abuse over mere awfulness, though.

Not even going to acknowledge the ridiculousness of calling Marten toxic. Unless, Odin, you're suggesting that Faye's friends are "holding her back" by keeping her within the world of Coffee of Doom, and hence in a job that doesn't match her skills and talents. In which case, we've already seen Dora try to encourage Faye to explore the lucrative possibilities of her sculpture and design gifts, and Marten's a generally supportive and caring friend. If/when Faye's ready to move on to a different job, she can still retain the friendship of the whole group, and I'd bet they'd be happy for her. Being a comfortable social group which just happens to be populated by individuals with their own issues and not incredibly prestigious jobs does not a toxic environment make, I'm afraid.

[Tergon]

I honestly feel kind of sorry for some of the folks here who see this and say, "Gah!  A negative response!  And we saw a few others before this!  Clearly they should break up now because they are all horrible bastards!"

I'm assuming - maybe foolishly - that they're serious and not just trolling.  In which case they honestly believe that if you love someone, you never ever ever fight.  And if you do fight, then it's not worth carrying on a relationship.  Maybe it's a learned response, from an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend?  Or they learned it from their own parents who split up over a couple of trivial arguments?  If so, I really do feel sorry for them, because they are never going to have a healthy relationship.
People, good kind loving people who care about each other, fight.  They do it all the time, for the stupidest reasons.  And these are two fictional characters who are also fighting, and the reason they are doing it is NOT stupid.

I have no idea who first said that the hardest thing in the world is loving someone.  Christ knows it's been said by a thousand people since then.  But it is very true.  If you love someone you love them even when they piss you off, and then when you make up, you love them more.  That's how relationships that matter really work.  And if you give the slightest shit about the person you're with, if you love them, then you fucking well try to make it work by loving them even when you fight.  What you don't do, not ever, is cut and run at the first sign of a fight.

Maybe the people who think that a breakup in QC is the right choice are just trolling and they don't believe it.  I hope so, for their sakes.  Because if not... that's just truly sad.


EDIT:
Also, reading that a few people have latched onto the "abusive" aspect of Dora's past relationships... I don't know if you're taking that from what I said above (probably not and I'm just self-obsessed, but anyway), but I don't think abusive has to mean that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her or called her names or verbally roasted her every chance they got.  In extreme forms, for damn sure that's what it means.  But if someone throws their heart at you and you just ignore it by cheating on them, treating them like shit and otherwise not deserving the love they give you, and if that experience damages them later in life, then I'd call that abusive.
Maybe it's too strong a word, but in that case I'd call it inaccurate, not wrong.  Abuse is abuse, no matter what flavour.

[Odin]

Oh for Christ's sake. Marten, of all the characters, a "toxic" person. Dora needing to be dumped by "wussy" Marten. What's next, calling Hanners a crybaby attention-getter who should toss out her pills and stop seeing a "head-shrinker?"

If someone behaved in the real world the way Marten has behaved through the entirety of his arc in the QC comic, yes, he'd be a toxic person to be in a relationship with (because he is incapable of adult behavior, as he has repeatedly shown everyone reading the comic for pretty much ever). He is the quintessential "clingy boyfriend/doormat" and the only thing that has kept him from being shown as the abusive boyfriend type Dora has apparently dated until now is that he hasn't had the opportunity (because he's been white-knighting Faye for so many years before hooking up with Dora).

To them I say: turn off your PC, go outside and meet people. Take a class. Volunteer for a non-profit cause. Hang around bookstores or jazz cafes. Get to know human beings in all their wonderful, frustrating, colourful, exhilirating, exhausting diversity. And then see if you're so damn sure about who is or isn't "toxic" or "wussy" or whatever neat little boxes you so cavalierly put people in.

Take your own advice, you sure are getting wound up about someone criticizing the personalities of characters you've become way too attached to for someone that suggests other people do those things.

Martin and Dora are toxic people

You could try spelling Marten's name right, for a start - though that wouldn't make your suggestions any more convincing.

Blow me, I mentally spell the name correctly in spite of Jeph naming the character after a relative of the weasel. Actually, thanks for that, I doubt Jeph choosing that spelling of the name is a coincidence.

Not even going to acknowledge the ridiculousness of calling Marten toxic. Unless, Odin, you're suggesting that Faye's friends are "holding her back" by keeping her within the world of Coffee of Doom, and hence in a job that doesn't match her skills and talents. In which case, we've already seen Dora try to encourage Faye to explore the lucrative possibilities of her sculpture and design gifts, and Marten's a generally supportive and caring friend. If/when Faye's ready to move on to a different job, she can still retain the friendship of the whole group, and I'd bet they'd be happy for her. Being a comfortable social group which just happens to be populated by individuals with their own issues and not incredibly prestigious jobs does not a toxic environment make, I'm afraid.

Omitting Faye from my earlier listing of characters that I think are toxic people doesn't mean I think she isn't also a toxic person.

Hell, if I were to go through and list the shit going on with the characters in the QC-verse, I might as well truncate it to: They all need serious therapy.

"Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." Edit:

I honestly feel kind of sorry for some of the folks here who see this and say, "Gah!  A negative response!  And we saw a few others before this!  Clearly they should break up now because they are all horrible bastards!"

It actually has more to do with them having a history of negativity pretty much throughout the history of this comic, from the very beginning. Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).

I'm assuming - maybe foolishly - that they're serious and not just trolling.  In which case they honestly believe that if you love someone, you never ever ever fight.  And if you do fight, then it's not worth carrying on a relationship.  Maybe it's a learned response, from an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend?  Or they learned it from their own parents who split up over a couple of trivial arguments?  If so, I really do feel sorry for them, because they are never going to have a healthy relationship.

Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).

People, good kind loving people who care about each other, fight.  They do it all the time, for the stupidest reasons.  And these are two fictional characters who are also fighting, and the reason they are doing it is NOT stupid.

The reasoning isn't stupid, but the method of expression damn sure is.

I have no idea who first said that the hardest thing in the world is loving someone.  Christ knows it's been said by a thousand people since then.  But it is very true.  If you love someone you love them even when they piss you off, and then when you make up, you love them more.  That's how relationships that matter really work.  And if you give the slightest shit about the person you're with, if you love them, then you fucking well try to make it work by loving them even when you fight.  What you don't do, not ever, is cut and run at the first sign of a fight.

Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?

If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.

[Karilyn]

She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis.  Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.

These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner.  Sad, but not abuse.

Unless Dora's had some serious counseling (which she has seemed to indicate that she has not) I will say that I don't think it's plausible that these past boyfriends were really abusive.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't understand that there are types of abuse that doesn't involve physically hitting a person.

It actually scares me a little, cause that's sorta the way that abusers talk "Oh, it's not abuse, because I didn't hit her, I just call her a stupid bitch because she is one."  "Oh it isn't abuse because I didn't hit her hard enough for her to get a bruise" "Oh it isn't abuse because she stays with me and if I was abusing her she'd leave" or whatever other excuse people come up with as to why their particular brand of abuse isn't actually abuse.  Hell, if you watch TV and the News enough, you'll see men who beat a woman TO DEATH, and they are going to jail for the rest of their lives, and they still insist that their beating their wife to death wasn't "really abuse, because..."

Now I'm not saying necessarily that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her, or verbally abused her.  But treating someone as a vagina with a body attached to it is still abuse.  You're devaluing them as a person as much as the standard abuser who calls someone a "worthless cunt" all the time.

[Mad Cat]

So how do you solve a problem like Dora?

Call Dora's League of Evil Ex-Boyfriends and challenge them to individual combat, of course.

And hot make-up sexxors.

[pwhodges]

Dora's League of Evil Ex-Boyfriends

Pssht - League of Evil Exes,  the more so considering Dora's occasional bi tendencies.

[akronnick]

You know, sometimes I really wish this forum had a "Hide User" function.

God knows I'd be using it in the last few days.

*assumes en guarde position clutching UBMEOD*

[Tergon]

...okay, I definitely don't want this to turn into a flamewar, so I'll just bite back the comments that are on the tip of my tongue about the difference between intelligent responses and "Fuck you I'm right".

Instead I'll just say that we're all entitled to our opinions, regardless of how many folks agree with us.  I'm not going to repeat myself other than to emphasise my main point - if you love someone you have to try.  And if your instant response to relationship stress is to claim that life's too short and who gives a shit, then I'm genuinely sorry for you.  That's damaged.  And I doubt someone with that outlook on life is going to find happiness any time soon.

But, hey, it's the internet.  People can express themselves and damned if I'm going to start Internet Drama over a difference of opinion regarding the relationship between two fictional people.

*collects his UBMEOD and stands beside akronnick, facing the ocean*

We stand as one!

[Blackjoker]

I will say that while the previous comic had me a bit meh, I rather like this one. Todays is very nice both in terms of communication between chars and emoting. As for what had me meh on yesterdays...I will avoid pouring gasoline on the embers.

[Carl-E]

At some point, I'm going to have to do a TL;DR on this thread, but until then, Odin needs to hear a few things...

OK, maybe it's me who needs to say a few things. 

...Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).

My wife of mumble mumble  years and I regularly verbally snark at each other.  It's a challenge of wits, it's fun, and we don't go for the jugular (a la Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe).  To the outside world, it seems a little bizarre, but I'm pretty sure we're mentally healthy.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it's helped us stay that way. 

Well, stable, at least. 

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).

Wow.  just... wow.  You can always find someone better?  You've just written yourself into a long trail of failed relationships, right there.  Right up until you find someone who you feel you're not  worthy of.  But with an ego that large, it may never happen. 

Try finding someone you love for who they  are, not for what they're worth to you.  Then hope they love you for who you  are.  If they don't, then  maybe it's not worth it. 

Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?

If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.

So far, that's the most reasonable thing you've said.  Bear in mind, though, that you can believe a lot of false things, and may need to be convinced of the truth! 

Here I stand, broom in hand, against the rushing tide...

[jwhouk]

I may have expressed some dislike for how this situation is being handled.  But, then I got to panel 5 (the I love you panel)  and all dislike went out the door.  It's well drawn and adorable and I want a big, giant copy of it.

Seconded. That panel was TEH cute. (And I did that intentionally!)

[Dliessmgg]

blah

trolls gonna troll

release the dickbrooms

[jwhouk]

aren't temper-pedic pillows that small though?

Some of them do appear to be that small, but really - those look like they're about 15" x 20". Standard pillows are about 20" x 30".

So is Faye coming to work tomorrow or what?

Uh... I really hope that's what tomorrow's comic is all about.

[Border Reiver]

Since it's already been said, and a lot more eloquently than I can manage, I'm going to get ready to lock shields and draw my broom.

[jwhouk]

80% of this thread = TL; DR.

Oh, and the "get away from the computer" commenter?

(Gets up, adjusts his wedding ring, goes into other room, smiles at photos of his lovely wife, then crawls into bed for the day - ON NORMAL SIZED PILLOWS, JEPH!  )

[Mr_Rose]

All of you guys manipulating your UBMEOD: Are you sure you all want to keep ...ah, stimulating them like that?
You might end up needing the UMMEOV....

[Odin]

...okay, I definitely don't want this to turn into a flamewar, so I'll just bite back the comments that are on the tip of my tongue about the difference between intelligent responses and "Fuck you I'm right".

Instead I'll just say that we're all entitled to our opinions, regardless of how many folks agree with us.  I'm not going to repeat myself other than to emphasise my main point - if you love someone you have to try.  And if your instant response to relationship stress is to claim that life's too short and who gives a shit, then I'm genuinely sorry for you.  That's damaged.  And I doubt someone with that outlook on life is going to find happiness any time soon.

But, hey, it's the internet.  People can express themselves and damned if I'm going to start Internet Drama over a difference of opinion regarding the relationship between two fictional people.

*collects his UBMEOD and stands beside akronnick, facing the ocean*

We stand as one!

If you didn't catch that I was talking about people spending their entire married life fighting to "make a relationship work" (as in, multiple decades "for the children" and making themselves and the kids miserable), you are beyond stupid. The rest falls into place in that context and you need to actually read what I post.

At some point, I'm going to have to do a TL;DR on this thread, but until then, Odin needs to hear a few things...

OK, maybe it's me who needs to say a few things.  

...Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).

My wife of mumble mumble  years and I regularly verbally snark at each other.  It's a challenge of wits, it's fun, and we don't go for the jugular (a la Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe).  To the outside world, it seems a little bizarre, but I'm pretty sure we're mentally healthy.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it's helped us stay that way.

Meanwhile, QC characters regularly go for the jugular. Jeph has characters like Faye act like they play off father suicide jokes so far, but I'd wager if he's going to handle it even remotely realistically Faye talks about that shit with her therapist at some point.

Well, stable, at least.  

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Why? Because you lose?

Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).

Wow.  just... wow.  You can always find someone better?  You've just written yourself into a long trail of failed relationships, right there.  Right up until you find someone who you feel you're not  worthy of.  But with an ego that large, it may never happen.  

Try finding someone you love for who they  are, not for what they're worth to you.  Then hope they love you for who you  are.  If they don't, then  maybe it's not worth it.  

There is a difference between "a long trail of failed relationships" and "thinking it is absolutely retarded for Marten to settle for a long term relationship with the very first woman that actually wants to have sex with him". We're discussing a derail over my saying how hilariously unrealistic (how toxic they'd be if they were real) the characters are compared to you and others thinking they are perfectly realistic, remember?

What you said only really applies if the dating pool around me is full of abysmally clingy, neurotic people (thankfully, it isn't). Where do you live, rural Alabama or something?

Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?

If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.

So far, that's the most reasonable thing you've said.  Bear in mind, though, that you can believe a lot of false things, and may need to be convinced of the truth!  

Here I stand, broom in hand, against the rushing tide...

And it makes sense if you read it in the correct context of what I actually wrote instead of fucking up in your reading comprehension like everyone disagreeing with me so far.

[Carl-E]

If you didn't catch that I was talking about people spending their entire married life fighting to "make a relationship work" (as in, multiple decades "for the children" and making themselves and the kids miserable), you are beyond stupid. The rest falls into place in that context and you need to actually read what I post.

Apparantly, no one caught that point.  Maybe because it wasn't articulated.  You really should read what you post also.  The context may have been clear to you when you wrote it, but obviously not when a lot of people read it.  You need to say what you mean! 

Well, stable, at least.  

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Why? Because you lose?

No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD

And it makes sense if you read it in the correct context of what I actually wrote instead of fucking up in your reading comprehension like everyone disagreeing with me so far.

Again, we all read what you wrote.  See my first point, and if you want to be heard, try backing up your statements before pontificating.  (wait, is that a contradiction?)

Oh, and try some polite discourse.  It tastes better. 

[Moxie]

Ah, today's comic is better! Much more what I was hoping for - some actual thought/conversation about Dora's actions. Maybe a tiny bit will stick this time, and Dora can start on the path of getting better!


Although, really Dora, don't encourage Pintsize.

If I am right, (and Jeph only knows that) then it's going to be very difficult for Dora to 'catch' herself doing that. That's why I think she needs counseling, so an uninvolved party can help Dora learn to perceive clues in her thought process that indicate she's 'doing it again.' Your brain needs training to do what you want it to, just like a balky horse. You have to be able to know when he's going to cut to the right to leave the arena before he does it. Correct him enough, and, in theory, he stops doing that. (In practice, the sneaky bastard waits until you're not paying attention for a while, then does it again. And so does your brain. But I'm told eventually they give up.)

Definitely with you on this one! But I think you're right - there is a bit of a start tonight. Like I said: hopefully that will stick!

Oh, and points to Marten for more full disclosure. So long as he holds to that, he keeps the moral authority (or whatever you want to call it) to hold Dora to it, too (which she did). I guess that's some of the handling Carl-E's concerned about, but doesn't she need it at this point?

Funny, I didn't have an issue with the word "handling", as I agree that Dora does need it. What I didn't like today was Marten's line of "You're not a mess" (because she is, albeit not as much of one as some others), and his line "We can fix this". I'm trying to decide what it is about that particular line that I don't like. I think it's partly the "we", because while Marten can help, I do think Dora needs outside help more...Marten's done all he can I believe.

[Near Lurker]

Now I'm wondering what Dora's evil exes would look like.

The Yoga Instructor!
David Bowie!
The Urolagniac!
The Diva's DJ!
The Bad Threeway!
And finally... Raven!

...I'm going to assume the "crazy racist" was just preemptive.  Or possibly David Bowie.

[Tergon]

Odin, you might try actually explaining things that you're saying some time.  Like Carl-E pointed out, yeah, you might have known what you wanted to say but... you didn't actually say it at any point.  Makes it a wee bit hard on the rest of us.

Anyway.  Now, rest assured, we're all very impressed with how clever you are - we all love forceful, agressive people here, God knows - and we're quite sure that you could probably beat us up in fights in real life in between you totally making out with, like, twelve hot chicks at once.  But if you're quite done being the Internet Tough Guy, you might want to wind down the insults just slightly because the adults are talking here, sweetie.  Staggering though it may be for you to understand, sometimes when people disagree with you it's not because they fail reading comprehension.  It's because they actually thought about what you said and didn't agree.
Also, what's the bet you take something from that out of context and declare me to be a supreme arsehole, because we've never seen a troll use that lame self-defence tactic before...

The thing that I'm not getting about your hate on the Marten / Dora relationship is that you seem to think they're at each other's throats all the time.  From all signs they're considered pretty much a nauseatingly cute couple by all of their friends.  They get along, they have similar tastes (aside from Toto), and obviously they're physically compatible.  Yes, they fight sometimes, but it was outright said only a few comics ago that the only thing they've had big fights about were Dora's trust issues.  Basically they get along wonderfully and all their friends acknowledge this - Steve even describes them once as a "Perfect Couple" - aside from a single recurring issue.  This issue has just now been revealed to have a perfectly understandable reason for existing, and Marten and Dora are being up-front about the fact that they plan to resolve the issue.

That's... just not what I'd call break-up material.

Obviously you shouldn't have a relationship with someone you can't stop fighting with.  That's such a blindingly apparent fact that I think that's why none of us realised that's what you were getting at - it didn't need saying, because we all agree with it.  It's like observing that standing in a fire is a bad idea because of all the heat.  And yes, obviously, if you don't get along with the person you're dating, breaking up with them is what you should do.  It's what any sane, rational person would do.
What everyone else in the conversation before you arrived was talking about, and what QC is currently working on, is a relationship in which you get along fine 99% of the time but occasionally fight.  Otherwise known as a normal relationship.  Which is hard, and it's why you have to try to make it work.  Because it's actually worth it instead of being a coward and backing out rather than take a chance.

In short, I agree with one point you've made, despite thinking that it didn't really need to be made because it's both incredibly obvious and not really relevant to what we were talking about.
As to how everyone else is apparently wrong, I might cheerfully point out that if every single person who talks to you thinks you're wrong, maybe it's just barely possible that theyr'e not all idiots and you need to consider what exactly you're saying.
And as to the pointless, random insults:  Fuck you and have a nice day.

*hefts the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks above his head*

[Heranje]

"thinking it is absolutely retarded for Marten to settle for a long term relationship with the very first woman that actually wants to have sex with him".

The mighty wielders of the UBMEOD have already vocalised my thoughts better than I could, but I'd also like to point out that this is not Marten's first relationship - he has had girlfriends before. So he's not really leaping at the first person who wanted to be with him.

[Odin]

If you didn't catch that I was talking about people spending their entire married life fighting to "make a relationship work" (as in, multiple decades "for the children" and making themselves and the kids miserable), you are beyond stupid. The rest falls into place in that context and you need to actually read what I post.

Apparantly, no one caught that point.  Maybe because it wasn't articulated.  You really should read what you post also.  The context may have been clear to you when you wrote it, but obviously not when a lot of people read it.  You need to say what you mean!  

Sorry, I figured since people were referencing divorce rates that we were on the same page.

Well, stable, at least.  

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Why? Because you lose?

No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD

That was terrible.

And it makes sense if you read it in the correct context of what I actually wrote instead of fucking up in your reading comprehension like everyone disagreeing with me so far.

Again, we all read what you wrote.  See my first point, and if you want to be heard, try backing up your statements before pontificating.  (wait, is that a contradiction?)

Oh, and try some polite discourse.  It tastes better.  

90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone I'm used to having to constantly take with people.

Odin, you might try actually explaining things that you're saying some time.  Like Carl-E pointed out, yeah, you might have known what you wanted to say but... you didn't actually say it at any point.  Makes it a wee bit hard on the rest of us.

I addressed this above.

Anyway.  Now, rest assured, we're all very impressed with how clever you are - we all love forceful, agressive people here, God knows - and we're quite sure that you could probably beat us up in fights in real life in between you totally making out with, like, twelve hot chicks at once.  But if you're quite done being the Internet Tough Guy, you might want to wind down the insults just slightly because the adults are talking here, sweetie.  Staggering though it may be for you to understand, sometimes when people disagree with you it's not because they fail reading comprehension.  It's because they actually thought about what you said and didn't agree.
Also, what's the bet you take something from that out of context and declare me to be a supreme arsehole, because we've never seen a troll use that lame self-defence tactic before...

Actually, most of the time when people disagree with me it's because they don't bother to take the time to understand my point before arguing against it (because they don't like "rude" language on the internet and apparently can't parse intelligent discourse if it isn't couched in flowery Shakespearan poetry). Also: because they're morons.

The thing that I'm not getting about your hate on the Marten / Dora relationship is that you seem to think they're at each other's throats all the time.  From all signs they're considered pretty much a nauseatingly cute couple by all of their friends.  They get along, they have similar tastes (aside from Toto), and obviously they're physically compatible.  Yes, they fight sometimes, but it was outright said only a few comics ago that the only thing they've had big fights about were Dora's trust issues.  Basically they get along wonderfully and all their friends acknowledge this - Steve even describes them once as a "Perfect Couple" - aside from a single recurring issue.  This issue has just now been revealed to have a perfectly understandable reason for existing, and Marten and Dora are being up-front about the fact that they plan to resolve the issue.

That's... just not what I'd call break-up material.

All of their friends are pretty fucked up in their own right. Wasn't Steve the one that was all "OMG BITCH YOU FLIRTED WITH SOMEONE ELSE, ARE YOU CHEATING ON ME?!"?

Hardly a group to use as a point of reference for whether or not a couple is "perfect", though I can see how you'd think that if your entire point hinges on relativism compared to every other relationship Jeph has had in the comic so far.

Obviously you shouldn't have a relationship with someone you can't stop fighting with.  That's such a blindingly apparent fact that I think that's why none of us realised that's what you were getting at - it didn't need saying, because we all agree with it.  It's like observing that standing in a fire is a bad idea because of all the heat.  And yes, obviously, if you don't get along with the person you're dating, breaking up with them is what you should do.  It's what any sane, rational person would do.
What everyone else in the conversation before you arrived was talking about, and what QC is currently working on, is a relationship in which you get along fine 99% of the time but occasionally fight.  Otherwise known as a normal relationship.  Which is hard, and it's why you have to try to make it work.  Because it's actually worth it instead of being a coward and backing out rather than take a chance.

In short, I agree with one point you've made, despite thinking that it didn't really need to be made because it's both incredibly obvious and not really relevant to what we were talking about.
As to how everyone else is apparently wrong, I might cheerfully point out that if every single person who talks to you thinks you're wrong, maybe it's just barely possible that theyr'e not all idiots and you need to consider what exactly you're saying.
And as to the pointless, random insults:  Fuck you and have a nice day.

*hefts the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks above his head*

Wouldn't you have to pull that out of your mouth first?

"thinking it is absolutely retarded for Marten to settle for a long term relationship with the very first woman that actually wants to have sex with him".

The mighty wielders of the UBMEOD have already vocalised my thoughts better than I could, but I'd also like to point out that this is not Marten's first relationship - he has had girlfriends before. So he's not really leaping at the first person who wanted to be with him.

Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this (and given how he pined over Faye forever, I find it easier to believe he actually was the stereotypical "Nice Guy" and just now--as in, the most recent comic--starting to finally grow up).

[Border Reiver]

Based on the above - "Gentlemen, Ladies - there would appear to be a troll in Asgard at present."

[Karilyn]

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Why? Because you lose?

No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD

That was terrible.

I thought the pun was above average.

I can never figure out of I'm trying to win or trying to lose when I'm playing Scrabble.

[keikun496]

Pintsize is the new yelling bird?

I would expect a line from the bird.

[pwhodges]

Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this

Do you simply not believe him?  After the arc in which his previous girlfriend came into Coffee of Doom?

If you allow that much rewriting of the strip, why should you, for instance, believe Faye's story about her dad?

Pintsize is the new yelling bird?

If you followed his Twitter, you'd know...

[Sapnish]

Odin, I think you may need a useless dickbroom of your own, as you are never going to convince the majority of this board that you are correct.

I really liked today's comic. The art was excellent, and I think Jeph is going about this story telling business all right.

Looking forward to the next storyline. What is this UTTERLY RIDICULOUS idea you have, Jeph? Does it involve a bunch of random strangers throwing brooms made entirely out of dicks at each other?

[Odin]

Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this

Do you simply not believe him?  After the arc in which his previous girlfriend came into Coffee of Doom?

When did that happen?

If you allow that much rewriting of the strip, why should you, for instance, believe Faye's story about her dad?

I prefer the McNinja variations on that whole thing, myself (for reference).

[benji]

Marten claims he had girlfriends before, there is no actual proof of this

Do you simply not believe him?  After the arc in which his previous girlfriend came into Coffee of Doom?

If you allow that much rewriting of the strip, why should you, for instance, believe Faye's story about her dad?

That's Jeph's big finally. Everyone lied about everything. Faye's really heiress to a wealthy and kindly millionaire, but didn't want her friends to judge. Hanners is really the head of a mob syndicate and is playing crazy so she can plead insanity if she ever gets caught. Pint size is really a small child in a cheap plastic costume. Marten doesn't believe that a single peace of the worthwhile music has been released since Steven Still's 1970 solo album.

[pwhodges]

Marten's ex comes in here; then he tells the story over a number of strips following, until Faye throws a jug of milk over her.

[Odin]

Marten's ex comes in here; then he tells the story over a number of strips following, until Faye throws a jug of milk over her.

Ah, I didn't start reading until the mid-500s.

You may want to read that story again, Marten is definitely glossing over some assholish behavior himself by refusing to take a hint when his ex had broken up with him (but didn't have the spine to flat out tell him to move back to California at the time).

Actually, that whole arc demonstrates my point. Mentally healthy people don't assault complete strangers on the say-so of one of their friends.

Take a look at #257, where Marten starts talking about the hints he was getting and Faye's horrifically insane over-reaction in #257 or so.

[Lost Coastlines]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't understand that there are types of abuse that doesn't involve physically hitting a person.

It actually scares me a little, cause that's sorta the way that abusers talk "Oh, it's not abuse, because I didn't hit her, I just call her a stupid bitch because she is one."  "Oh it isn't abuse because I didn't hit her hard enough for her to get a bruise" "Oh it isn't abuse because she stays with me and if I was abusing her she'd leave" or whatever other excuse people come up with as to why their particular brand of abuse isn't actually abuse.  Hell, if you watch TV and the News enough, you'll see men who beat a woman TO DEATH, and they are going to jail for the rest of their lives, and they still insist that their beating their wife to death wasn't "really abuse, because..."

Now I'm not saying necessarily that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her, or verbally abused her.  But treating someone as a vagina with a body attached to it is still abuse.  You're devaluing them as a person as much as the standard abuser who calls someone a "worthless cunt" all the time.

It is good that you acknowledge you're going out on a limb, because you are wrong.  The most I'm willing to personally divulge is that I've worked with abused (both physically and emotionally) women and children in the past and still volunteer when I have time.  I fully concede that emotional abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse.  No argument there.  But given my experience, I get annoyed when people throw that word around so loosely.

[Near Lurker]

Marten has had at least one girlfriend before, but that was some pretty damn "Nice Guy" behavior with Faye in the first 500 strips.  I'm going to have to agree that he's made some personal growth in that regard since Dora.

[pwhodges]

He mentions "three or four before..." in 1031.  Also that four girls dumped him in high school (1066).

[Is it cold in here?]

1066.

Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna. He'd flatly assert counterfactual things, like the character in the Dilbert about how the craziest people define reality. The entire executive team working for him wound up in counseling before they sued him. Treating Dora "like shit" could very plausibly have involved mindfucking her.

Odin: if you're trying to prove that Faye is toxic, why not cite strip 69, where she assaults a generous friend for no reason at all? She isn't doing that any more. I'd argue that the worst thing the characters are doing to each other on a regular basis is enabling each other's underachievement, and even there we can see a prominent exception in Dora's repeated prods to Faye to pursue art or some other alternative to a dead-end retail job.

Look at it this way: what character is worse off for having fallen in with the QC crowd? If they were toxic, they'd be damaging everyone around them.

[Mr_Rose]

Arguably, Tai is. After all, if Marten and his horny girlfriend hadn't been hanging around, she could have got that 30% raise....

[jwhouk]

So how do you solve a problem like Dora?

Call Dr. Corrine.    - 12 (28.6%)
Call Hannelore.    - 1 (2.4%)
Call Tai.    - 5 (11.9%)
Call Jimbo.    - 1 (2.4%)
Call the Ghostbusters.    - 4 (9.5%)
Pancakes. Or Waffles.    - 2 (4.8%)
Asps.    - 5 (11.9%)
UBMEOD to the head.    - 12 (28.6%)

Total Voters: 42

What saddens me is that no one got the reference in the title.

[Carl-E]

Sorry, I figured since people were referencing divorce rates that we were on the same page.

Wait, wasn't that the "Dump her ass" thread? 

Where's I leave my map? 

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Why? Because you lose?

No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD

That was terrible.

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.  Be sure to tip your servers, or they'll make you sweep up!  And you realy don't want to use their broom...

90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone I'm used to having to constantly take with people.

Oh good lord, he's blaming his behaviour on his upbringing...

And oddly enough, it explains so much!