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[Skewbrow]

Perhaps this is then not the best time to point out that the intersection of two concentric circles IS the smaller of the two circles - and therefore can be represented with a single circle. I know. It doesn't work exactly like that with Venn diagrams, because then you would really want to draw both circles.

[Lubricus]

LOL! You're right, of course! The intersection of a Venn diagram is basicly worthless in itself - it is only with the non-intersecting parts of the circles the diagram gives any valuable meaning. Well played! 

[Odin]

[Antimon]

This is one of the best math jokes I ever saw in a Webcomic (xkcd included). Nice work!

... and "Hi, everyone"?

[Lubricus]

Hi there, Antimon!

[Odal]

Ummm... equality is not  a theoretical concept.  it's a mathematical one, but not all mathematics is theoretical!  You can balance a scale, after all...

Balancing a scale doesn't prove equality.  We only aim for an aproximation of balance.  No two things will be exactly the same weight.

[jwhouk]

Years of math classes and college courses in calculus, and I didn't pick up on the joke until someone said it here.

This is why I went into social sciences.

[jwhouk]

Ummm... equality is not  a theoretical concept.  it's a mathematical one, but not all mathematics is theoretical!  You can balance a scale, after all...

Balancing a scale doesn't prove equality.  We only aim for an aproximation of balance.  No two things will be exactly the same weight.

Oh, I really don't want to link to another certain webcomic about this... but... I like this one.

[Lubricus]

Hey, thanks for that link! I haven't seen that webcomic before, and it looks great!

[steveh11]

Well, my point is that (to me) psych is still an immature science, which is at about the same level of maturity as alchemy wrt chemistry.  But like I said, I've never had any experience of any kind of 'therapy', short of novels, film/TV and now comics.

You do realize you've basically just said: "I have a strong negative and dismissive attitude about psychology although I know nothing about it?" Or to put it another way: "to me psych is an immature science, and my sole knowledge of it comes from highly fictionalized, dramatized media that is more interested in story than accurate representation of medical knowledge"?

Yes.

I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't hold a negative opinion about psychology--many people do. But holding such an opinion with zero knowledge of the discipline as it is actually practiced (and there are many different ways of practicing) is another matter.

For one thing, the way psychiatrists use talk therapy can be different. In some cases, patients just need an opportunity to talk, air out their issues, and be listened to. A lot of people simply don't spend much time analyzing their reactions and relationships, etc, and having someone "safe" ask questions simply prompts some much-needed self-reflection. In other cases, therapists will guide you towards certain realizations. Dora's just starting therapy--but what was useful from her first session is that it right away pegged her brother, and her relationship with him as a sore point (otherwise she wouldn't have gone off talking about it for 45 minutes and not even known the time was up), and of course the content of Dora's Sven-speech might have given some basics for the therapist to explore/work on with Dora later. As Dora talks more and the therapist learns more about her, he will be able to help her put her various issues together, and guide her to explore particular parts of her psyche.

OK.

You do realise that I asked the question, don't you?  As in, seeking out information?
I thank you for your explanation.

[tbones]

No two things will be exactly the same weight.

The day i learned why that is true, was like someone took my inner nerd to the most awesome roller coaster ever.

Also, about the comic:
I  keep feeling that SOMETHING is GOING to happen between Marigold and Sven!! I JUST CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT!!!!

[Delator]

I  keep feeling that SOMETHING is GOING to happen between Marigold and Sven!! I JUST CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT!!!!

I'm calling an online WoW love triangle between Marigold, Sven, and Dale.

 

They then learn they all actually know each other in real life. Hilarity Ensues.

 

[bicostp]

Poor Marigold. It's not that easy being green socially broken.

[Carl-E]

I'm calling an online WoW love triangle between Marigold, Sven, and Dale.

Naaaah - I'm thinking that WoW will be an in for Marigold into realizing that Sven's human.  They'll bond over it, but IRL.  And Sven'll make a friend.  It may go somewhere, but probably not, despite much hilarity. 

Dale, on the other hand... now, there's  a twisted love interest, right there! 

[Dr. ROFLPWN]

Man that would be a huge "fuck you" to the two camwhores in her guild if she and Sven were to hook up

Just post a picture to the website with the caption "Oh I'm sorry I am busy making out with an
Italo-Nordic sex god"

Know that they are choking on their own bile on the other end

[DSL]

Well, hell, Sven, how hard would it have been to say "Hi, Marigold"? I'd Gibbs-slap ya if it wouldn't bust my computer, you bein' a cartoon character and all.

[DJRubberducky]

Sorry for going all the way back to yesterday's strip with this comment, but:

I'm really surprised nobody else has made explicit mention that Dora just might be freaking out about the therapist wanting to spend the whole nominal-hour talking about her brother, when one of her major insecurity issues is that she felt everyone cared about her brother more than they did about her.

Yes, in this case there will probably be some helpful advice coming out of such talking, but that doesn't change the fact that her therapist very neatly pushed one of Dora's buttons right there in the first session.

[pwhodges]

Why should it be the therapist who decided that, though?  The therapist will be mostly listening, and Sven is what Dora  found herself talking about.  She may blame the therapist for not changing the subject, but that's not how they work.

[Carl-E]

Ah yes, I can see it now...

"So, tell me a little about your brother." 

Then, either

"What, that man-whore?" followed by a 45 minute seething rant, or

"Well, he's nice enough, I guess.  At least he is lately.   When we were younger..." followed by 45 minutes of tales of woe and intrigue. 

Either way, grist for the mill! 

[tbones]

Well, hell, Sven, how hard would it have been to say "Hi, Marigold"? I'd Gibbs-slap ya if it wouldn't bust my computer, you bein' a cartoon character and all.

Well, he didn't actually said "hi" to hanners either, and he is good at reading people and he obviously noticed that Marigold was unconfortable... I don't think he was at fault there...

[TheEvilDog]

Sorry for going all the way back to yesterday's strip with this comment, but:

I'm really surprised nobody else has made explicit mention that Dora just might be freaking out about the therapist wanting to spend the whole nominal-hour talking about her brother, when one of her major insecurity issues is that she felt everyone cared about her brother more than they did about her.

Yes, in this case there will probably be some helpful advice coming out of such talking, but that doesn't change the fact that her therapist very neatly pushed one of Dora's buttons right there in the first session.

But therapy is never just about the person in the room with the therapist, it's about their interactions with other people. The fact that Dora spent 45 minutes talking about Sven alone spoke volumes to the therapist. Its one thing to say you have problems and issues, but that doesn't really help solve them. Which is why therapists often ask about family, friends, relationships, to know what can push someone, to help their patients figure out how to stop those specific buttons being pushed.

I mean, come on, one of the first sessions and Dora spends 45 minutes talking about her brother, her (supposedly) successful older brother, song writing career, has his own two storey apartment (I can't imagine those would be too common, or available to someone with an average wage), doesn't have to work and has essentially coasted through life with little effort. And yet Dora has struggled to maintain her own buisness, was average in the extreme in school, has developed a very serious case of sibling jealousy and has resorted to living with said brother. Whether she knows it or not, Dora has modelled her life on what she has seen Sven do with his, and has failed to notice that Sven is utterly miserable, a man who has failed to have one, proper, meaningful romantic relationship.

A person isn't just one person, defined by their own actions, but their interactions with the people around them. A good therapist will never just talk to a patient about themselves (the patient).

[Is it cold in here?]

All points well taken, but the original point still stands. Dora may resent the room her brother takes up in her mind, and specifically may resent that she spent a whole therapy session talking about him, even though or especially because it was her call to do it.

[DSL]

I think we forumites all see the point that Dora (or anyone) is the sum total of a bunch of things, including interactions with others, and therefore that is a legitimate thing to talk about in therapy. The larger point, and for the purposes of the comic the punchline, is that Dora doesn't get it: "When is it going to be about me?"

[westrim]

What is this, XKCD?

Maybe this falls under "Don't Explain The Joke", but for the non-math-inclined ...

Why is Marigold's self-loathing the square root of two?
Because it's irrational.

Dora's flaws would be sqrt(-1), since most of them are imaginary.

I guess it is.

All I saw:

thigh spread wider

I first wrote "attention was drawn to the difference between Dora's legs", but at the last moment I realized, which 3 words would mind-in-the-gutter language police copy/paste out of that sentence?

Yeah, I kind of had to stretch to make my pun. Thighs wasn't plural, for instance. Still, it was inevitable that someone would make the allusion, so I decided to go ahead and do it.

Well, hell, Sven, how hard would it have been to say "Hi, Marigold"? I'd Gibbs-slap ya if it wouldn't bust my computer, you bein' a cartoon character and all.

He might've, but Hannelore beat him to the 'ello, and with a follow up question no less. Notice how he wavers a bit before skipping the pleasantries and just answering her question.


In regards to Dora, part of her neurosis is that under her veneer of socialism (not that one) is a fairly self centered person. Thus, though she may have recognized that she needs to talk about her brother in abstract, she wanted to talk about herself first and foremost with someone she finally didn't have to care about judging her, and later bring her issues with Sven or anyone else in as a secondary issue. Underlying her entire world view is the question "but what about me?", and she thought the therapy would answer that question- when what she needs to do is change the question, if that makes sense.

Also, writing it that way was funny.

[Is it cold in here?]

Isn't there some school of philosophy which holds that we only exist as the sum of our relationships with other people and things?

[TheEvilDog]

In regards to Dora, part of her neurosis is that under her veneer of socialism (not that one) is a fairly self centered person. Thus, though she may have recognized that she needs to talk about her brother in abstract, she wanted to talk about herself first and foremost with someone she finally didn't have to care about judging her, and later bring her issues with Sven or anyone else in as a secondary issue. Underlying her entire world view is the question "but what about me?", and she thought the therapy would answer that question- when what she needs to do is change the question, if that makes sense.

This I completely agree with. Her whole life has been about one person, Dora, and her own needs. But, as you've said Westrim, Dora has this idea that the therapy will be all about her, that the therapist will answer the question of "what about Dora?" The thing is, all that question has don't has led her from one bad relationship to another, and the first relatively decent relationship she has had has seen Dora subconsciously trying to sabotage it from day one.

Actually, (and I'm not a psychiatrist so this might be a load of crap), but does anyone get the feeling that Dora suffers from Antisocial personality disorder? Just taking a quick look at the defining characteristics we have;

• Poor behavioural control - Anger, irritability,  impatience, aggression - Espresso machine incident, the underwear incident, Cosette's asking Marten out, etc
• Tendency to violate personal boundries - Do I really need to give an example of that? Fine, ignoring Marten's requests to not look at his private internet history, and using Pintsize to get onto Marten's laptop
• Irresponsible work behavior - Leaving work in what was presumably the middle of the day to go and looking up her boyfriend's collection of porn, leaving Faye alone to deal with any customers.
• Poor and abusive relationships - Apparently all her boyfreinds before Marten.

Just a few characteristics (and we all know that other members of the cast probably have them in spades), but it really does puts things into perspective.

[Odin]

Well I, for one, have always found goatkcd.com to be far more amusing than the original.

[Deadlywonky]

Isn't there some school of philosophy which holds that we only exist as the sum of our relationships with other people and things?

Hegel referred to this obliquely, my understanding of German Idealism is flaky at best but it runs along the lines of:
"we are individuals but the world around us is made of universals, those universals are made by our interactions with others, our thoughts alone can never make these universals".
if anyone can phrase this better please correct me

odin:

from the newbies thread

2. Internet Memes? Passe. There is nothing exciting or new about robots, pirates, ninjas, or all the other bullshit you heard mentioned one time and think is omg fucking hillarrrrrious. Again, it's been done before, and really we don't want to hear your take on the same tired cliche. When was the last time you heard a good cover of "Brown Eyed Girl"? Same principle.

Goatse; really?

[Kugai]

I definitely think that Hanners may have a bit of Vulcan blood in her family tree somewhere   

[Carl-E]

Actually, (and I'm not a psychiatrist so this might be a load of crap), but does anyone get the feeling that Dora suffers from Antisocial personality disorder? Just taking a quick look at the defining characteristics we have;

• Poor behavioural control - Anger, irritability,  impatience, aggression - Espresso machine incident, the underwear incident, Cosette's asking Marten out, etc

Too be fair, most of these incidents were at stressful (in one form or another) times.  However, her reactions under stress are certainly something to be addressed in therapy...

• Tendency to violate personal boundries - Do I really need to give an example of that? Fine, ignoring Marten's requests to not look at his private internet history, and using Pintsize to get onto Marten's laptop

Not to mention crawling into bed with Faye, going off into a horny fugue state about Hanners, and there are probably other incidents.  But different people heve different levels of personal boundaries.  The porn thing was really an attempt at self-sabotage, anyway, I don't think I'd count it. 

• Irresponsible work behavior - Leaving work in what was presumably the middle of the day to go and looking up her boyfriend's collection of porn, leaving Faye alone to deal with any customers.

Again, it's the same self-sabotage example.  Other times when she's left work have mainly been things like spending time with Marten, or going to lunch, or taking care of some crisis.  Really, it's just one of the perks of being the boss! 

• Poor and abusive relationships - Apparently all her boyfreinds before Marten.

No argument with that one. 

However, a quick search (I'm no psych-person either) shows that, though some of these are symptoms of antisocial personaliuty disorder, the actual diagnosis requires "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."  The issues usually verge on the criminal, and often include lying, stealing, constant irresponsibility, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, ... 

She's just not that bad.  If nothing else, we've certainly seen remorse.  And if there's one thing she's not, it's consistant!

[Skelepunk]

Dora shows more of a insecure attachment style than she does of Antisocial Personality Disorder. Also, it's more likely-attachment issues are far more common than mental illness.

[Akima]

Whether she knows it or not, Dora has modelled her life on what she has seen Sven do with his, and has failed to notice that Sven is utterly miserable, a man who has failed to have one, proper, meaningful romantic relationship.

Utterly miserable? Sez who? Sure, Sven got a bit of a wake-up-call when he realised he'd screwed things up with Faye, but "utterly miserable" is going a bit far I think. I suppose some people might think he ought to be miserable, but there's not much evidence I think.

In regards to Dora, part of her neurosis is that under her veneer of socialism (not that one) is a fairly self centered person.

Socialism? Do you mean sociability? I've never seen any sign of Socialism in Dora the petite-bourgeois business-owner , but I know the USAnian political dictionary is different.

[westrim]

In regards to Dora, part of her neurosis is that under her veneer of socialism (not that one) is a fairly self centered person.

Socialism? Do you mean sociability? I've never seen any sign of Socialism in Dora the petite-bourgeois business-owner , but I know the USAnian political dictionary is different.

(not that one)

[pwhodges]

I translated it as socialisation  myself.

[cesariojpn]

I  keep feeling that SOMETHING is GOING to happen between Marigold and Sven!! I JUST CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT!!!!

I'm calling an online WoW love triangle between Marigold, Sven, and Dale.

 

They then learn they all actually know each other in real life. Hilarity Ensues.

 

Hot on the hells of our show with Doctor Who and the Cybermen Family, watch as we get a Blood Elf Archer, an Orc Warlock, and a Draenei Paladin all together in one house.....next on "Living with the Enemy."

[Sorflakne]

Mari-girl's right.  Pretty people are dicks.

[iduguphergrave]

This is kinda off the current line of discussion but I noticed Jeph's doing something a little different with Marigold's hair in the front. Also, I like that green hoodie on her 

[jwhouk]

I think we forumites all see the point that Dora (or anyone) is the sum total of a bunch of things, including interactions with others, and therefore that is a legitimate thing to talk about in therapy. The larger point, and for the purposes of the comic the punchline, is that Dora doesn't get it: "When is it going to be about me?"

Thinking back to the list she gave about him to Marten way back in 1107, she does have about 45 minutes of stuff on him:

• Everything's always about HIM. (Which I doubt he'd agree with, at least right now.)
• Every other girl at school had a crush on him. (You wonder if the scene at the Horrible Revelation and the "napkin full of phone numbers" happened frequently in HS.)
• Half my friends were just pretending they liked me so they could sneak up to his room and make out. (The key word in that sentence? "pretending". BIG trust issue there.)
• He was Mr. Popular and I was just his weird little sister who had bad skin and wore too much black. (Poor self image.)
• He doesn't even have to TRY! (Songwriting is not an easy job, even when it's country music.)
• He cruised through HS and college (This is also just from her point of view, but I know there are people out there who have done this.)
• He never studied and still got perfect grades. (Again, from her POV - and what does SHE mean by "perfect grades"? Anything better than she did?)
• Meantime I'm busting my ass to make C's and D's (Ah, now it comes out. He was probably getting A's and B's, not "perfect" or "straight-A" grades.)
• Then after school, he writes completely stupid f'ing songs and paychecks come rolling in (I wonder how many of those royalty checks he's received since the Riversmith episode?)
• I can barely afford a living wage. (But she's her own boss with her own employment - and as she pointed out to Marten's mom, "It consistently fails to drive me into bankruptcy, so I must be doing something right.")
• Oh, and one of my best friends was boinking him. (I added that. I wonder how the whole thing with Faye and Sven - and their resulting breakup - will come around in therapy.)

This is kinda off the current line of discussion but I noticed Jeph's doing something a little different with Marigold's hair in the front. Also, I like that green hoodie on her  :-)

It's grown out. Remember? Time skips?

[Carl-E]

By definition, you can't remember time skips. 

 

[westrim]

By definition, you can't remember time skips. 

 

Well, I got from 10th grade to 12th grade somehow.

[Border Reiver]

Bribes?

[DSL]

JW: We agree. And this is me wishing you luck IRW.

[cesariojpn]

By definition, you can't remember time skips. 

 

Well, I got from 10th grade to 12th grade somehow.

Do we wanna know?

[westrim]

I did quite well grade-wise junior year, it's just that I think back and can't specifically remember anything about it. I don't remember any of my teacher's names, only one or two people I knew were a grade above me, and so on.  Get your minds out of the gutter.

[cesariojpn]

Well, I did quite well grade-wise junior year, it's just that I think back and can't specifically remember anything about it. I don't remember any of my teacher names, only one or two people I knew were two grades above me so no one I knew left during it, and so on.  Get your minds out of the gutter.

Funny, I thought it partially involved a rain gutter.....maybe I just have an overactive imagination.

[Carl-E]

Poor Marigold.  She's got a point, though. 

About the makeovers.  Not the harpoons. 


Of course, she'd look a lot nicer if she's stop slouching about with a scowl on her lip...

[helloandgoodbye]

  Sure, Marigold.  You're not the prettiest girl in the world, but at least you have big tits.

  /shot

[Is it cold in here?]

Marigold cares more about her appearance than she lets on, but I sure wouldn't mind if she dug in her heels and insisted on being evaluated for her server tuning prowess and being left alone about how she looks.

[iduguphergrave]

I got a harpoon I'd like to put in Marigold's butt durr hurr hurr



(I promise I'm actually a woman  )

[westrim]

Marigold cares more about her appearance than she lets on, but I sure wouldn't mind if she dug in her heels and insisted on being evaluated for her server tuning prowess and being left alone about how she looks.

She actually cares quite openly about how she appears (how many strips has she groused to Angus and Hannelore about specific things, and more publicly about her lack of appeal, including this very strip?), the problem is that she cares in a bad way. She grumbles that no one looks at her and stays in her room wallowing in self pity. instead of actually doing something about it, like laying off the Pocky, going for a run, and taking a shower. That's not even appearance stuff, that's health stuff.  She needs to clean up her self image and herself, and wear a smile instead of being so mousy in both the visual and mental sense. If she'd just stay clean (not that one), she'd be quite appealing.

EDIT: Oh, I just realized that there's a new strip up and that's what we're talking about.  I thought we were talking about the one in the hallway. The above is all from before that revelation.

Marigold, Kevlar isn't very good at stopping harpoons because they're too slow. They'd probably go through it like thick cloth.